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	<title>Comments on: Becoming what we behold</title>
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	<link>http://www.richardliantonio.com/blog/2009/05/becoming-what-we-behold/</link>
	<description>theological and devotional musings by Richard Liantonio</description>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.richardliantonio.com/blog/2009/05/becoming-what-we-behold/comment-page-1/#comment-1054</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 09:42:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.richardliantonio.com/blog/?p=168#comment-1054</guid>
		<description>Hey Joshua - in a nutshell - it is extremely detrimental to focus on your gauging your feelings and your connection with the Lord. It is called &quot;introspection&quot; and is actually debilitating to our spiritual life. Love is by nature an outwardly flowing and moving reality. Introspection gets one caught up in an inward spiral of inspection, evaluation, criticism, etc. and short-circuits the outward flow of love. I&#039;ve written more on this but haven&#039;t posted it yet. I hope to shortly, however. Be in touch!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Joshua &#8211; in a nutshell &#8211; it is extremely detrimental to focus on your gauging your feelings and your connection with the Lord. It is called &#8220;introspection&#8221; and is actually debilitating to our spiritual life. Love is by nature an outwardly flowing and moving reality. Introspection gets one caught up in an inward spiral of inspection, evaluation, criticism, etc. and short-circuits the outward flow of love. I&#8217;ve written more on this but haven&#8217;t posted it yet. I hope to shortly, however. Be in touch!</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Rainwater</title>
		<link>http://www.richardliantonio.com/blog/2009/05/becoming-what-we-behold/comment-page-1/#comment-759</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Rainwater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 07:31:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.richardliantonio.com/blog/?p=168#comment-759</guid>
		<description>Thats so Jesus&#039; leading In what you said. I was just talking to my friend Luis over the phone of how I felt God was leading me Into the knowledge of God through the &quot;Why&quot; behind his actions lol. Just started Genesis a while ago.  Not to mention God isn&#039;t giving me allot of light on the outright statements like he did the first time. It is definitely forcing me to dig/think/pray more. I think I do view God as disconnected from his heart In his works. Is It harder for the heart to mingle the two?

I have been hitting walls In my connection with him personally In the past and this Is what drove me Into the whole posture of gazing on his heart. Shame builds up on my heart whenever I sin (obviously lol). It is so natural to be performance driven and religious. I hate feeling distant or disconnected. Having a locked heart as Bickle calls It. I started turning these passages Into confessions after repentance of his feelings toward me. It takes endurance In agreeing with Jesus but when It breaks In, Im filled with tender gratitude. I get some confidence In his affection and you know how that Is. I come In raw and exposed before him and It&#039;s like all the fear and shame rises up and I look at him and open my mouth to agree with the reality of his personality. Nothing moves at first but as I maintain focus on him and speak to him eventually the Holy Spirit shines light In cooperation with my agreement. It like Im the happiest person on the planet after that!

This seems like such a battle to live connected on the Inside without going on autopilot during the day. In the midst of ministry and doing the kingdom works I want to actually do It In his strength. It seems the longer I live disconnected the more lies get more ground. The more shame takes longer to overcome when I wait before The Lord. I also notice most people subconsciously relate to God on the basis of their own righteousness and avoid God In their heart. They may not even notice their not connected on a personal level with him because of shame. I feel kinda strange focusing on these kind of subjects so much (contemplative prayer/knowledge of God) but I also want real relationship with God on the inside. Like real heart to heart, honest, vulnerable, real, not fantasy, friendship with Jesus. Is It wrong to over focus on this? Is It wrong to be constantly aware of where you connection with Christ is? I have felt exactly what you were saying In that post - 

&quot; I want the real me – the perplexed, in pain, aware of my shortcomings me to know God and what He is like. I don’t want the “me” with no problems and everything is working out great to believe that God loves me and is faithful towards me. I want the isolated, god-forsaken, broken, longing-for-something-beyond me to glance outside my shell and somehow learn to trust and hope in a God who loves and delights in me.&quot;

I wan&#039;t It lodged Into the most painfull place of my spirit. I get frustrated when revelation doesn&#039;t come immediately honestly. The wait Is HARD.

sorry for long comment so to summarize: Is It hard to mingle God&#039;s actions and emotion together Into one In the heart?
                                                             Is It wrong to over focus on this? Is It wrong to be constantly aware of where            your connection with Christ is?


Thanks a ton!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thats so Jesus&#8217; leading In what you said. I was just talking to my friend Luis over the phone of how I felt God was leading me Into the knowledge of God through the &#8220;Why&#8221; behind his actions lol. Just started Genesis a while ago.  Not to mention God isn&#8217;t giving me allot of light on the outright statements like he did the first time. It is definitely forcing me to dig/think/pray more. I think I do view God as disconnected from his heart In his works. Is It harder for the heart to mingle the two?</p>
<p>I have been hitting walls In my connection with him personally In the past and this Is what drove me Into the whole posture of gazing on his heart. Shame builds up on my heart whenever I sin (obviously lol). It is so natural to be performance driven and religious. I hate feeling distant or disconnected. Having a locked heart as Bickle calls It. I started turning these passages Into confessions after repentance of his feelings toward me. It takes endurance In agreeing with Jesus but when It breaks In, Im filled with tender gratitude. I get some confidence In his affection and you know how that Is. I come In raw and exposed before him and It&#8217;s like all the fear and shame rises up and I look at him and open my mouth to agree with the reality of his personality. Nothing moves at first but as I maintain focus on him and speak to him eventually the Holy Spirit shines light In cooperation with my agreement. It like Im the happiest person on the planet after that!</p>
<p>This seems like such a battle to live connected on the Inside without going on autopilot during the day. In the midst of ministry and doing the kingdom works I want to actually do It In his strength. It seems the longer I live disconnected the more lies get more ground. The more shame takes longer to overcome when I wait before The Lord. I also notice most people subconsciously relate to God on the basis of their own righteousness and avoid God In their heart. They may not even notice their not connected on a personal level with him because of shame. I feel kinda strange focusing on these kind of subjects so much (contemplative prayer/knowledge of God) but I also want real relationship with God on the inside. Like real heart to heart, honest, vulnerable, real, not fantasy, friendship with Jesus. Is It wrong to over focus on this? Is It wrong to be constantly aware of where you connection with Christ is? I have felt exactly what you were saying In that post &#8211; </p>
<p>&#8221; I want the real me – the perplexed, in pain, aware of my shortcomings me to know God and what He is like. I don’t want the “me” with no problems and everything is working out great to believe that God loves me and is faithful towards me. I want the isolated, god-forsaken, broken, longing-for-something-beyond me to glance outside my shell and somehow learn to trust and hope in a God who loves and delights in me.&#8221;</p>
<p>I wan&#8217;t It lodged Into the most painfull place of my spirit. I get frustrated when revelation doesn&#8217;t come immediately honestly. The wait Is HARD.</p>
<p>sorry for long comment so to summarize: Is It hard to mingle God&#8217;s actions and emotion together Into one In the heart?<br />
                                                             Is It wrong to over focus on this? Is It wrong to be constantly aware of where            your connection with Christ is?</p>
<p>Thanks a ton!</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.richardliantonio.com/blog/2009/05/becoming-what-we-behold/comment-page-1/#comment-757</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 20:25:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.richardliantonio.com/blog/?p=168#comment-757</guid>
		<description>Joshua - I think its awesome the way you are growing and learning to know the Lord&#039;s heart in a deeper way. My advice for the most part would be to keep on doing what you are doing. I would simply keep in mind two things (and I&#039;ll refer you to some of my posts with more info)

1) The knowledge of God&#039;s &lt;em&gt;emotions&lt;/em&gt; is frequently imbedded in his &lt;em&gt;actions&lt;/em&gt;. We know this to be true from every day life. We know someone more from what they do rather than from the statements they make about themselves. The emotions of God explain the &quot;why behind the what&quot; but without the &quot;what&quot; the &quot;why&quot; floats off in a disconnected state that can become hopelessly abstract. The redemptive actions of God in history convey God&#039;s heart to us in concrete ways that are manifested in action. They are what prove to us that he is glad, loving, kind, and full of desire. I like to call this idea &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.richardliantonio.com/blog/?p=76&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;the historical revelation of God&quot; - because God is revealed in and through what he does in history.&lt;/a&gt; Don&#039;t just look for statements about God&#039;s heart, also look for the great acts of God which display the grandeur and glory of his heart in history.

2) In the same way that it is often easy to view God&#039;s emotions in an abstract way separated from his actions, it is easy to view our &quot;spiritual lives&quot; in abstract from our whole self, particularly the parts of us we would like to edit out - the weak, sad, angry and fearful parts of us. However, these are the parts that desperately NEED the heart of God. The &quot;spiritually-elite-self&quot; doesn&#039;t need to know God&#039;s kindness. In fact, it doesn&#039;t even need a savior - its doing quite well on its own. When we bring our whole un-edited self before God, our experience of his heart changes drastically. 
 Check out these for more: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.richardliantonio.com/blog/?p=82&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Insanity of Our Time&lt;/a&gt;;  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.richardliantonio.com/blog/?p=195&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Will You Forget Me Forever?&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joshua &#8211; I think its awesome the way you are growing and learning to know the Lord&#8217;s heart in a deeper way. My advice for the most part would be to keep on doing what you are doing. I would simply keep in mind two things (and I&#8217;ll refer you to some of my posts with more info)</p>
<p>1) The knowledge of God&#8217;s <em>emotions</em> is frequently imbedded in his <em>actions</em>. We know this to be true from every day life. We know someone more from what they do rather than from the statements they make about themselves. The emotions of God explain the &#8220;why behind the what&#8221; but without the &#8220;what&#8221; the &#8220;why&#8221; floats off in a disconnected state that can become hopelessly abstract. The redemptive actions of God in history convey God&#8217;s heart to us in concrete ways that are manifested in action. They are what prove to us that he is glad, loving, kind, and full of desire. I like to call this idea <a href="http://www.richardliantonio.com/blog/?p=76" rel="nofollow">&#8220;the historical revelation of God&#8221; &#8211; because God is revealed in and through what he does in history.</a> Don&#8217;t just look for statements about God&#8217;s heart, also look for the great acts of God which display the grandeur and glory of his heart in history.</p>
<p>2) In the same way that it is often easy to view God&#8217;s emotions in an abstract way separated from his actions, it is easy to view our &#8220;spiritual lives&#8221; in abstract from our whole self, particularly the parts of us we would like to edit out &#8211; the weak, sad, angry and fearful parts of us. However, these are the parts that desperately NEED the heart of God. The &#8220;spiritually-elite-self&#8221; doesn&#8217;t need to know God&#8217;s kindness. In fact, it doesn&#8217;t even need a savior &#8211; its doing quite well on its own. When we bring our whole un-edited self before God, our experience of his heart changes drastically.<br />
 Check out these for more: <a href="http://www.richardliantonio.com/blog/?p=82" rel="nofollow">The Insanity of Our Time</a>;  <a href="http://www.richardliantonio.com/blog/?p=195" rel="nofollow">Will You Forget Me Forever?</a></p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Rainwater</title>
		<link>http://www.richardliantonio.com/blog/2009/05/becoming-what-we-behold/comment-page-1/#comment-736</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Rainwater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 19:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.richardliantonio.com/blog/?p=168#comment-736</guid>
		<description>I have a question at the end of this too. 

I have actually been contemplating the same thing. I love the &quot;beholding becoming principal&quot;, especially In studying God&#039;s emotions. I have also noticed that songs without much content to meditate on before we go into an &quot;we worship you&quot; kind chorus leave to our own concept of who God is and what we have cultivated In the knowledge of God. No wonder these songs do not move me as much (or really anyone) unless I had encountered Jesus mercy/gladness/immensity that day. I like to write songs so this actually helped me put what I had been thinking into words! It is like David builds the heart up with these doxologies of who God is, then he finally puts In some phrases like &quot;to you be the glory&quot;. The heart Is just taken up In his beauty and worship becomes that which comes naturally when the knowledge of God is presented. It&#039;s like song of songs 1:2 &quot;your name is perfume poured forth&quot; and &quot;therefore the maidens love you&quot;. I crave more songs that create that adoring love through the pouring forth of his name. 

Question: I have been studying the emotions and knowledge of God In scripture through pray-reading through the Bible and spending times of contemplative prayer specifically on the verses that touched me. Also reading books on this subject. I went through the whole Bible before looking for those verses and highlighting them, sometimes crying over them. This completely started revolutionizing  the atmosphere in my heart. Shame started leaving my emotions at enormous rates and false view were falling like crazy and I would just sob during contemplation. It was amazing the worship It was creating In my heart. Im about to start going through the whole scripture again like this (just bought my new journal yesterday!) I was wondering If you had any other advice when studying the personality of Jesus and his emotions?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a question at the end of this too. </p>
<p>I have actually been contemplating the same thing. I love the &#8220;beholding becoming principal&#8221;, especially In studying God&#8217;s emotions. I have also noticed that songs without much content to meditate on before we go into an &#8220;we worship you&#8221; kind chorus leave to our own concept of who God is and what we have cultivated In the knowledge of God. No wonder these songs do not move me as much (or really anyone) unless I had encountered Jesus mercy/gladness/immensity that day. I like to write songs so this actually helped me put what I had been thinking into words! It is like David builds the heart up with these doxologies of who God is, then he finally puts In some phrases like &#8220;to you be the glory&#8221;. The heart Is just taken up In his beauty and worship becomes that which comes naturally when the knowledge of God is presented. It&#8217;s like song of songs 1:2 &#8220;your name is perfume poured forth&#8221; and &#8220;therefore the maidens love you&#8221;. I crave more songs that create that adoring love through the pouring forth of his name. </p>
<p>Question: I have been studying the emotions and knowledge of God In scripture through pray-reading through the Bible and spending times of contemplative prayer specifically on the verses that touched me. Also reading books on this subject. I went through the whole Bible before looking for those verses and highlighting them, sometimes crying over them. This completely started revolutionizing  the atmosphere in my heart. Shame started leaving my emotions at enormous rates and false view were falling like crazy and I would just sob during contemplation. It was amazing the worship It was creating In my heart. Im about to start going through the whole scripture again like this (just bought my new journal yesterday!) I was wondering If you had any other advice when studying the personality of Jesus and his emotions?</p>
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		<title>By: Kristy</title>
		<link>http://www.richardliantonio.com/blog/2009/05/becoming-what-we-behold/comment-page-1/#comment-731</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 01:19:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.richardliantonio.com/blog/?p=168#comment-731</guid>
		<description>The last couple of weeks I have also been musing over the 2 Corinthians 3:18 verse and what it really means when it is said &quot;beholding is becoming.&quot;  This is new language in particular for me, as I have never heard it said this way (before coming to Kansas City).   Though I lack much of the comparative historical concepts to further encourage my outcome, I do however have experiential knowledge of this as I walk it out day to day.  It is true, Richard, we will worship what we love and in my opinion, are also prone to abandon all to receive reciprocation of it .  Having my affections and attention arrested by the knowledge of great love for me by an Everlasting God, has reset YEARS of belief systems I&#039;ve accumulated, coupled with growing up in the height of the charismatic movement.   Value-reorientation articulates well the transition I have been experiencing.  What is of any value to me receives prime choice of my time, love and resources.  What is most reassuring is the natural (er, supernatural) progression that begins to take place in the beholding.  The gradual or impulsive &quot;emptying of the pockets&quot; or dumping of the alabaster box is the obvious response to a heart provoked in voluntary love.  It is an overwhelming and involuntary response to comprehension of Father God, Creator God, Faithful God, etc.  How could anyone resist?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The last couple of weeks I have also been musing over the 2 Corinthians 3:18 verse and what it really means when it is said &#8220;beholding is becoming.&#8221;  This is new language in particular for me, as I have never heard it said this way (before coming to Kansas City).   Though I lack much of the comparative historical concepts to further encourage my outcome, I do however have experiential knowledge of this as I walk it out day to day.  It is true, Richard, we will worship what we love and in my opinion, are also prone to abandon all to receive reciprocation of it .  Having my affections and attention arrested by the knowledge of great love for me by an Everlasting God, has reset YEARS of belief systems I&#8217;ve accumulated, coupled with growing up in the height of the charismatic movement.   Value-reorientation articulates well the transition I have been experiencing.  What is of any value to me receives prime choice of my time, love and resources.  What is most reassuring is the natural (er, supernatural) progression that begins to take place in the beholding.  The gradual or impulsive &#8220;emptying of the pockets&#8221; or dumping of the alabaster box is the obvious response to a heart provoked in voluntary love.  It is an overwhelming and involuntary response to comprehension of Father God, Creator God, Faithful God, etc.  How could anyone resist?</p>
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		<title>By: sclough</title>
		<link>http://www.richardliantonio.com/blog/2009/05/becoming-what-we-behold/comment-page-1/#comment-696</link>
		<dc:creator>sclough</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 11:11:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.richardliantonio.com/blog/?p=168#comment-696</guid>
		<description>I think your theory is in the right direction.  Is this not the reason that the Scriptures command us to worship the Lord?  Scoffers point to those verses as indicators of God&#039;s great ego but I don&#039;t see those commands as coming from an ego at all.  When God commands us to worship Him, He is commanding us to set our heart on him and re-orient our hearts until we see what He is as that which is ultimately of the highest perfection and the most valuable.  

We can truly worship only when we prize Him as that which is perfect and ultimately of the highest value.  Because God is perfect it is natural that we should adore His perfection and gaze upon it that we might know what perfection is.  As we value His perfection, which is worship, we then subsequently reflect Him and begin to long to display His perfection within ourselves.  The command to worship, then is an invitation of the highest kind to place great value on what is ultimately perfect and then be transformed into the place of reflecting that perfection.

When man worships he places value on God and we he places value on God, he will begin to desire to have the attributes of God in His own life.  Genuine worship then not only exalts God and His ultimate perfection, but it also redeems and restores man to his place because as man worships he demonstrates to all creation that God is the highest of all perfection and, as a result of his worship, man then also begins to reflect God&#039;s nature and character to all creation as he was intended to do.

I agree on the repetition of phrases.  I think we have such a low view of worship that we settle for music of a certain kind rather than sitting before God and declaring His perfection with a heart filled with awe.  While I do believe that choruses and other things can be used for genuine worship, I sadly feel we have reduced genuine worship to that only and in that reduction are missing the point as you noted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think your theory is in the right direction.  Is this not the reason that the Scriptures command us to worship the Lord?  Scoffers point to those verses as indicators of God&#8217;s great ego but I don&#8217;t see those commands as coming from an ego at all.  When God commands us to worship Him, He is commanding us to set our heart on him and re-orient our hearts until we see what He is as that which is ultimately of the highest perfection and the most valuable.  </p>
<p>We can truly worship only when we prize Him as that which is perfect and ultimately of the highest value.  Because God is perfect it is natural that we should adore His perfection and gaze upon it that we might know what perfection is.  As we value His perfection, which is worship, we then subsequently reflect Him and begin to long to display His perfection within ourselves.  The command to worship, then is an invitation of the highest kind to place great value on what is ultimately perfect and then be transformed into the place of reflecting that perfection.</p>
<p>When man worships he places value on God and we he places value on God, he will begin to desire to have the attributes of God in His own life.  Genuine worship then not only exalts God and His ultimate perfection, but it also redeems and restores man to his place because as man worships he demonstrates to all creation that God is the highest of all perfection and, as a result of his worship, man then also begins to reflect God&#8217;s nature and character to all creation as he was intended to do.</p>
<p>I agree on the repetition of phrases.  I think we have such a low view of worship that we settle for music of a certain kind rather than sitting before God and declaring His perfection with a heart filled with awe.  While I do believe that choruses and other things can be used for genuine worship, I sadly feel we have reduced genuine worship to that only and in that reduction are missing the point as you noted.</p>
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